Sunday, March 20, 2011

Getting Our Signals Crossed

As Christians, we’re commanded to love God with all our minds, as well as our hearts and souls. The mind, of course, is the tool we use to make sense of the world. It requires that we use logic and reason for it to work at all.

Consequently, to love God fully, we cannot depart from logic and reason. Though we can never fully understand an infinite being, what we do understand of him must be at least consistent with logic and reason. Otherwise, we are no longer using our minds, but risk “losing” them.

In recent posts, we have tried to set forth the classic Christian formulation of understanding God’s omnipotence. When biblical texts refer to God doing the “impossible,” we understand that to mean that God is capable of doing many things that are impossible to mere humans, such as allowing an elderly woman to become fertile again, or raising someone from the dead. We do not extend this power to extremes that require us to embrace contradictions, for embracing contradictions would be a departure from reason. For example, God does not possess the attribute of “non-goodness,” so it is nonsensical to ask if God can sin, that is, be “all good” and “not all-good” at the same time. God cannot make a square that is also a circle, to use another common example.

But the atheist is not satisfied with this response. He insists that we interpret the Bible literally. If it says that God can do all things, even the impossible, then we must accept as true that God can make a square-circle. But how does this help their case? Is this not simply circular reasoning? They begin with the premise that doing the impossible is, well, not possible. Consequently, adhering to a book that claims that the impossible is in fact possible is irrational. Holding to an irrational faith is itself irrational. Consequently, Christianity must be irrational and therefore not worthy of adherence.

But there are two principal problems with this analysis, besides the obvious circular reasoning that is employed. The first is that the bible does not demand literal interpretation. There are many places in which it speaks metaphorically, not the least of which are the words of Jesus himself, as he conveyed many ideas through the use of parables. The Bible was never intended as a physics manual. It was not written by physicists for physicists, so insisting that it be read that way is not a question of interpretation of a passage, but of taking the entire book out of context. Once again, the straw man fallacy is at work.

The second problem with the atheist’s position is that, even if we were forced to accept the words as literally true – God can even make a “square circle” - there is no way to show that God does not have this power. All we can say is that the human mind is incapable of making sense of such a claim using logic and reason. But scientists tell us that there is much more to the universe that what meets the eye. They are only now beginning to make sense of things such as dark matter and dark energy. They tell us that in the first nanosecond of the universe’s existence, there were more than 10 dimensions, which reduced down to the four that we now perceive. Other scientists posit the existence of multiple universes – the mulitverse – whose characteristics cannot be assessed because they lie beyond our ability to perceive them. Perhaps in these other dimensions, the “impossible” is not only possible but easily done.

Consider it this way: like the am/fm radio in one’s car, our minds possess limited abilities in receiving and processing the “signals” that surround us. The air around the radio is full of signals of varying kinds, but the radio is capable of capturing and converting only a small portion of them. It takes these signals and processes them to produce sound which is recognizable to our ears. Our minds are “receivers” of a sort as well, processing what our senses take in through the use of reason and logic. We are operating within the four dimensions. If there are other dimensions, other ways of knowing things, they are beyond our ability – at least at present – to access them. The car’s radio may be within range of an aircraft or marine transmission, or may be alongside a police car being dispatched to the scene of a crime. That the am/fm radio cannot process these signals is not evidence that the signals are not there. So too with us. From the perspective of other dimensions, perhaps reconciling a square with a circle is easily shown. But we will never know, at least not this side of eternity.

In the end, this challenge is easily seen for what it is. By reasoning to a result that is embedded in the premise, the challenger is sure to come up with the wrong answer, the one that he assumed when he asked the question. He is engaging in circular reasoning and getting his “signals” crossed.
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19 comments:

Alex B said...

Enough with the square circle!! What's that been? Four posts about it?

You keep coming back to that whilst ignoring requests to provide evidence that your god exists outside of time (the 'I am' argument is pathetic, don't use it), and not a single one of you has addressed the issue of your god using people to lie on his behalf.

This blog has been going round in circles for the last couple of weeks, and it's starting to get very boring.

Trent Collicutt said...

I suppose that I will never meet an atheist who uses a figure of speech. Raining cat's and dogs in their view must really mean they are in danger of stepping in a poodle.

If you use William Lane Craig's formulation of omniscience as a template, you could posit a formulation for omnipotence as:

Let set A be the set of all things that are known to be or believed to be possible to do. Let set B be the set of all things that are possible. Set A is obviously a subset of set B.

If omnipotence is defined as the ability to perform all things in set B, then the omnipotent being would be (from our perspective) able to do anything that is possible to do plus things that appear impossible to do.

Being confined to three physical dimensions and one temporal, out of 11, our view of what is possible to a being with access to these dimensions would be fairly simplistic. Like teaching multivariable calculus to a paramecium.

On the other hand, I remember a quote from somewhere . If I can explain God than I am limiting him. I don't believe in that God either.

Stormbringer said...

I agree with Ray Comfort about apologetics to some extent. If we do manage to present a case to someone with an open mind, we can have an intellectual convert but not a spiritual one. While he appears to want less apologetics and more gospel, I believe in satisfying the intellect as well as the spirit. So, we need to remember Scripture as well as logic. (Please do not assume that I am inferring that you are remiss, I just wanted to put in a reminder.)

Trent Collicutt said...

A lot comes down to the parable of the sower. Just because some seed gets eaten by birds doesn't mean you stop sowing.

Trent Collicutt said...

Scripture is very important, as is the work of the Holy Spirit. I think, as it is my preference, there is a need to show a line of logic that is independent of the Bible. Once you show that there is a reason to think that God is a reasonable hypothesis, you can come with the gospel that he has done this wonderful thing for you.

Again, from a technical background to get taken seriously there has to be a basic idea of how it might be possible before a discussion of why.

Joel Furches said...

This entire discussion kind of reminds me of when the Jews kept asking Jesus for a sign, and the frustration he expressed at this. He was walking around healing people on a daily basis, and occasionally raising them from the dead. And they still want a sign.
We're surrounded by this increadibly beautiful and complex creation that works in a logical and orderly manner, and we're asking God to do parlor tricks to show that he's out there.

Alex B said...

"We're surrounded by this increadibly beautiful and complex creation that works in a logical and orderly manner, and we're asking God to do parlor tricks to show that he's out there."

A surroundings that can be almost completely explained by natural processes. If anything, the world we live in stands as overwhelming evidence in favour of an ancient Earth and of the fact of Evolution....both of which contradict the Bible account.

The delusion is strong with you, Joel.

Stormbringer said...

"the fact of Evolution"

This same "fact" that is in disagreement among scientists? "Oh, we know it's a fact, but we don't quite know how it works". It seems to me that there would be much more uniformity other than their declarations that "it is true anyway".

I do not have that kind of blind faith, thank God.

Alex B said...

Stormbringer, just because the forces working on it are extremely complex and not yet fully understood, it doesn't make the actual fact that evolution happens (and has been repeatedly observed to happen) any less true.

Repeatedly saying that 'evolution is a lie' doesn't alter any of the firm proven facts about it.

Alex B said...

Here you go Stormbringer, watch this - http://www.wimp.com/niceinfo/

Stormbringer said...

Sorry, not interested in your insulting link or assumption. I have rejected evolution on both scientific and scriptural reasons long ago, and the scientific evidence against it is constantly growing. But your condescending link will not show contrary evidence, atheists never present contrary evidence, do they? Such evidence threatens the foundations of their religion.

Alex B said...

Stormbringer, the web page title in nothing to do with the video it hosts.

The evidence is overwhelming, but if you're not willing to even look at it then we can end this discussion here.

One more thing, atheism ISN'T a religion, just like 'bald' isn't a different colour of hair.

Stormbringer said...

"The evidence is overwhelming,"

Yes, that evolution is not scientific, but a philosophy.
"but if you're not willing to even look at it then we can end this discussion here."

OK.

"atheism ISN'T a religion"

You differ with several atheists. But you might like to go here and fight it out:
http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2011/03/religion-of-atheism.html

Alex B said...

Stormbringer, why would I care what known liar Ray 'the banana is the atheist's nightmare' Comfort thinks? The man is a fraud!

"Yes, that evolution is not scientific, but a philosophy."

No, you've got that entirely wrong, it's actually SCIENCE, based on FACTS and EVIDENCE. Watch the video, there's no philosophy there, just cold hard fact.

Alex B said...

Also, Stormbringer, you'll notice, if you read that Ray Comfort piece's comments, the fraud getting his ass handed to him.

I'm honestly lost as to what you were trying to prove by posting that...a known YEC'er claims (in passing) that he thinks atheism is a religion, followed by a huge number of atheists pointing out it's not!

Stormbringer said...

The faith of evolution, the faith of atheism! While suppressing and denying evidence against evolutionism, supporters force-fit observations through their preconceptions. Essentially, "Evolutiondidit!"

By the way, has anyone else noticed the appeal to authority fallacy at work here? If you disagree with evolutionism, you had better be a qualified scientist. However, anyone with a half-hearted opinion can be a "theologian" and criticize real theologians and the Bible itself.

Interesting double standard.

Alex B said...

Come on then, Stormbringer, let's have a list of the evidence that argues against evolution!

I bet you don't bring up a single point that hasn't be roundly debunked time and time again.

Alex B said...

I can't help but notice you've not posted that evidence yet, Stormbringer.

Please don't keep me waiting, I want to be shown where I'm in error.

Alex B said...

Come on Stormbringer! Not like you to go so quiet!