PleaseConvinceMe Podcast 197
In this episode, Jim answers the classic question, “Can God create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?” What does “omnipotence” mean from the Biblical perspective of the Christian Worldview and does the Bible have anything to say about the nature of God that might make sense of the paradox? Also, Jim answers listener email about King David, war in the Old Testament, the danger of false teachers, the nature of the world prior to the Fall and whether or not Hitler was a Christian.
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15 comments:
I liked this podcast. It gave me a couple of items that I need to revisit and make notes. Also, I had wondered if we were hearing Jim's kids, and the reasons for the breaks. Those little details are interesting for my investigative self. Oh, OK. I'm nosy.
Hi, I just wanted to make a comment on the mail Jim read out on his podcast on 28/Mar concerning the YEC and his question to the effect.. "if when were all in heaven (Christians that is) and there's no death or suffering any more, shouldn't it of been the same before Adam's fall... that is there were was then no death or suffering on earth."
I thought this was a good point and I already emailed Jim on it and here's a few points of the email I sent him with a bit added...
Now here’s my main point, you read out an email from a YEC on the topic of what is a good creation, I think you said that God’s good original creation had death and suffering before the fall or words to that effect. You mentioned there was a difference between good and perfect and even elaborated of the meaning of perfect.
You would agree though that when God calls His creation very good, God is giving His direct approval and satisfaction to what he has made. Indeed I believe God is revealing His own delight in His creation.
So we agree God is showing delight in the great work of His hands, but it seems so incompatible with the creation old earthers believe in as it is littered with suffering, diseases such as cancer, carnivorous animals, thorns and death as revealed in the fossil record which most OEC believe happened before the fall.
Did Adam & Eve in their pre-fall state have to endure & witness such things?, did they ever fear for their lives as their defenceless naked bodies could of been exposed to these dangers around them? I think no,it appears that Eve did not feel afraid when approached by a serpent(snake)when Satan worked through the animal to decieve her. It seems reasonable too to believe there were other animals in the garden too, but again we do not hear or see any fear on the part of our first parents in the scriptures.
Perhaps I’m going a little off the point here, but the God I know and the harsh original creation OEC believe in just don’t square up. The scriptures also speak of man & beast originally been vegetarian and says nothing of any living thing been a meat eater before the fall. Our Lord when He spoke on divorce said "that from the beginning of creation when God created male and female…" again giving more weight to the polemic for a young earth.
Another comment on this I’d like to make is that Jesus called His own Father good when speaking with the rich young ruler(paraphrased), but we would also believe from the scriptures that the Father is perfect as indeed the Son is. So we know God is truly good and perfect. Therefore in the goodness of God and His original Very Good creation, I believe the creation had a quality and goodness without the evils of diseases such as cancer, etc. Indeed His creation was perfect. I think it is safe to say this in the pre-cursed world. Certainly God looks after His creation now and is still good for doing so, however because of sin in the world God is dealing differently with His creation in that he allows us to eat meat now. Many animals too are now carnivorous. Death and suffering are now part of this age, but will be done away with in the age to come.
Any comments?
Eddie
Hi Eddie, I am by no means an expert on this, but maybe some clarifying questions can help...
You seem to be ok with plant death before the fall, just not animal/human death, right? Do you think that Adam and Eve could have stubbed their toes or skinned their knees? If a loose boulder had fallen on an animal/person, crushing them, what would happen? Were there any saprophages (insect decomposers) before the fall, or were they only vegetarian as well? Do you think that the protective Garden of Eden encompassed all of creation? Do you think that there is no difference between Heaven and pre-fall creation? If not, what differences were there? Thanks.
Do you realise how silly this discussion sounds if you observe it from the facts being Adam and Eve didn't exist?
Hi Tim & Alex, hope you are both having a nice day.Tim I'll address the questions you have first and Alex I'll make a comment on what you wrote to finish.
Tim you say your not an expert, well neither am I, but I don't believe we have to be in order to take hold of God's word.
First I believe from your questions you are an OEC.
OEC or most of them believe that apart from the fall of man and death of man through sin very little else has changed in nature and I think you hold to a form of uniformitarianism.
It's like a worldview within the Christian worldveiw, so straigth away youre gonig to run into problems with the comments I made.
Ok the question on plants, plants are of a different category to animals, plants dont feel stress or pain animals do. You remember the scripture in Proverbs "A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs. ...
but scripture never takes about man be kind or cruel to plants.It would be silly to see this in the bible.
Secoundly you are comparing Adam & Eve's existence to what we see today. Let me ask you, do you think it was good for God to leave them naked in a garden with stinging and biting insects, that maybe they could have hurt themselves with thorns.
You see when you look at scripture with the wrong glasses you see the wrong things and ask the wrong questions.
I believe we can draw from an instance in scripture when the children if Isreal were 40 years in the wilderness, the bible says their shoes or clothes never wore out. God was supernaturally upholding their substance,if we apply this to the prefall world we see this again and Adam & Eve had complete bliss in the presence of their Creator wtihout fear of pain. All said and done I do think our existence in heaven will be different to the pardise on earth that once was. When God brings all things to completion and when we will have our new glorified bodies we will no longer be married or be given in marraige for there will be no need for procreation as our Lord will have brought all of His elect to be home with Him. More could said on this, but I think enough is said to drive home the point I made in the first article.
Alex I take it you beleive in macro evolution if so then we have evolved from slime right? right ..and our brains have evolved too to percieve reality as we see it now right? right, but if our brains had of evolved differently then our perception of reality could have been different right? right. So how do you know you perception of reality is right now as you have no real standard to judge by.. so I think it's silly you made the comment in the first place.
If I'm wrong on your belief/faith let me know.
Eddie
Sorry Tim, I forgot to mention the garden in protective custody you asked about, even if it were the case, animals on the outside were still sufffering, eating each other and getting diseases such as cancer.
If a rightous man is kind to his animals how much is God kind and good to His own creation. Our God did not create a world of suffering, even the apostle Paul speaks of the world graoning waiting for the adoption of sons. The world is groaning because of sin.
Eddie
"Alex I take it you beleive in macro evolution if so then we have evolved from slime right? right ..and our brains have evolved too to percieve reality as we see it now right? right, but if our brains had of evolved differently then our perception of reality could have been different right? right. So how do you know you perception of reality is right now as you have no real standard to judge by.. so I think it's silly you made the comment in the first place.
If I'm wrong on your belief/faith let me know."
I don't believe in evolution, I accept the evidence of it, I accept that it is a proven fact...it's the same as not believing in the Sun, or gravity - I know those things exist so I don't need any faith to accept them.
As for the rest of your point, it was incoherent at best, and downright garbled at worst. I *think* you're trying to say that our perception of reality is down to how our brains interpret the stimulus from our nerves and senses, and that, if we'd evolved differently, our perception would be different. Yes, that is the case. However, just because we can't be 100% certain that what we're experiencing is actually what's happened, it doesn't mean we should (for whatever reason you imagine) turn to a god.
Ultimately, we DON'T know that our perception of reality is correct, but as we have no other way of perceiving the Universe around us we have to work with what we have and proceed as if our perceptions are correct.
Hi Alex, I don't mean to offend you, it's just that atheist cannot really account for their worldview, even now you have replied with passion, but why? if were just an accident and we live and die and thats it ..why are you even going to the bother to respond. Indeed if the theist is happy in his belief why try to persuade him to your view.What is to be gained from it if it all means nothing in the end.
I know you have worth and diginty as you are made in the image of God, but if as you say were just evolved slime and were just dancing to our dna as Dawkins says. Why are you so passionite when someone presents a view opposite yours?
Eddie
This is just a test so ignore!
Hi Eddie here that was coming up with my wifes name Rose.
Sorted this out now
Eddie, we ARE evolved, and (if anything) religion belittles the achievement of life on this planet.
Hi Alex, I think you're missing the point I made in the previous comment. You are making an assumption on knowledge, but you cannot account for it. For e.g. you are relying on your memory, as a living being who has evolved from chemicals your brain is just atoms in motion. You really cannot tell if your brain is able to remember to an even fairly accurate degree what just happened, never mind trying to understand the origin and evolution of life. But here we are dialoguing and able to make sense of each other's view. From my prespective I can account for this as I beleive in God who created us with mental abilites so that we can make sense of the world and He is the necessary being for us to be able to do so. You may say I know things from experience, but again you are relying on your brain which is just undirected mutantional matter. In regards to achievement, beauty, art, music, love and ultimate meaning I believe it finds it's fullfillment in knowing God who has endowed us to be able to enjoy, appreciate and find true & ultimate meaning in everythng.
Eddie
A friend of mine had an excellent answer to the 'lift a stone' argument. The answer is yes. God the Father can make stone so big that God the Son cannot lift it. It avoids the actual question and those problems but it is nonetheless interesting.
Yes, I have to smile everytime I hear this type of question by the atheist or skeptic, there seems to be such an eagerness to subject God to the laws of the cosmos.
or make Him a part of the universe.
Although some might present this objection without much thought.
I also think there are those who ask this question with a pure motive, one that reveals their deep seated desire not to submit to the omnipotent Creator.
eddyie - sorry for the long delay in responding.
It may be the case that OE don’t see as much physical changes from pre-fall to post-fall, but could it be that YE attribute too much? This is the very question that we are asking. To say that all pain, suffering and death are results of the fall is exactly what I was trying to bring to light with the questions I asked. It is pertinent to decide whether you think that stubbing your toe was possible pre-fall and if a rock fell on an animal what would happen. Were mosquitoes and ticks created post fall or changed from their vegetarian diets as well?
Rereading Genesis this week and thinking of your comments, I found it interesting that God tells Eve that because of her sin, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth.” Doesn’t this indicate that there was some pain pre-fall to be multiplied?
You mentioned that God supernaturally protected Israel but not Adam and Eve in the garden because of Proverbs 12:10. A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal, But even the compassion of the wicked is cruel. We agree that God is not a man. We and the animals are His creation. He has every right to do with the animals (and man) what He wishes. We do not. He could create animals with the intention of putting them into the “circle of life” that allows for man to strive without questioning his righteousness. I just don’t want to add to scripture what is not there with regard to Adam and Eve not having any pain or fear prior to the fall.
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